Sunday, April 09, 2006

What's with all the cheating heroes? (Potential spoilers)

Oye. So I'm going around scanning blogs and I find that yet another book has a cheating hero. What the f&ck??? It's not acceptable in real life.. it sure as hell isn't acceptable in the pages of a book!!! We turn to books for a sense of escape, fantasy, the untouchable, the perfect romance, right? So, why, oh why, are more authors having the heroes cheat? It's dispicable!

The first book I had heard about a hero cheating in was Ruth D. Kerce's Xylon Warriors: His Carnal Need. I LOVED the first book in the series, Xylon Warriors: Initiation and was anxiously awaiting this book... then I heard the horrifying news from a friend: The hero from Initiation (the first book) cheats. Ugh. He had his HEA with his heroine and now it's ruined!! Why would an author do that????

Now, I was scanning JaynieR's blog and it turns out that the hero in JR Ward's newest release Lover Eternal cheats as well. As you all know I couldn't work my way through the first book in this series(Dark Lover), now that I read this.. cheating... I would just like to say... any thoughts of giving this series one more try somewhere in the future are totally gone now. Ick.

Why do authors write about cheating heroes? As I said before, it's not something that's acceptable in real life, so why the hell ruin our books with it?? I'm stumped. Flabbergasted. Do you have any ideas?

33 People Gabbed:

Ann Wesley Hardin said...

Anne, as an author, I can only guess that it's because it's new ground. Authors, as a general rule, like to explore the human experience in it's entirety and like it or not, cheating is part of it.

Maybe they're exploring areas where they would think cheating is an acceptable thing? By that I mean they're asking, is cheating ever acceptable, and can happy endings come in spite of it?

I agree that it takes the fantasy away from romance. But then, so do children dying and women leaving abusive husbands. Yet those are well covered areas in modern romance. You see what I'm saying?

Maybe they're pushing the envelope to see how far they can go. Testing the market. Hard to say.

Those are the only reasons I can think of at the moment. Perhaps I'm wrong. It'll be interesting to read other takes on the issue.

Good question, Anne!

KatieW said...

Never, EVER have a hero cheat in a following book.

I always like to think of sequel characters in terms of Judith McNaught's Paradise and Perfect. I LOVED Matt and Meredith in the first book, and was so happy to see them back in the second with Zach and Julie. I would have KILLED if Matt ended up with anyone else but Meredith.

As a reader, I go through all the trials and tribulations with the main characters, and at the end (especially with a romance) you want the end result to be a good one. I'm a fan of HEAs, which Matt and Meredith had, despite all their years of drama.

But I would not have handled it had Matt or Meredith cheated on the other, and I would not have read any other books by the author had she written that.

The series whore that I am, cheating with my beloved characters is not allowed.

Sarah McCarty said...

IMO THere's a difference between the fantasy lost when a child dies (an act of God) or a plot that contains an abusive husband( He's never part of the HEA fantasy) and a Hero or heroine that cheats in a subsequent book. The former are indirect plot devices, but in a romance, the strength of character of the H&H, the integrity of their committment to each other is the central theme in the story and the enitre book is designed to convince the reader that this committment is invulnerable. With the end of the story comes the promise that all issues have been resolved and these two can handle anything together. Breaking that faith with a reader is a very risky maneuver for an author to take. I dont' want to find out that a hero I so admired and I trusted with the happiness of the heroine turns out in book two or three in reality to be an to be an immoral, untrustworthy, immature person at the mercy of his impulses. I certainly never ever want to see him back with the heroine again. Pretty much, just want the hero to die some horrendously disgusting death and disappear from existence. I would have absolutely zero sympaty for the cheater and ther would be nothing the author could do to make his cheating "acceptable" to me. As an author, I cannot understand the use of this as a plot device in a romance. As a reader, I'd probably be hesitant to buy another book from any author that broke my faith in their promise of the HEA I fell so hard for in the previous book.

Pretty much, that HEA needs to remain inviolate for me. An author can do anything they want to the couple before committment is made, but once the committment is made, then it's made. Period. Forever more. And the couple lives Happily ever after.

Ann Wesley Hardin said...

I'm with ya'll there! If I ever got the urge to write about infidelity, I'd definitely be shopping it as women's fiction rather than romance. Can't say I'd want to do it, though. I write erotic comedy! As skilled as I hope to be someday, I doubt I'd be able to make cheating into a fun-filled, zany romp. LOL.

Unless...

Oh crap. Now I've gone and gotten an idea. Curses!

But never fear, ladies. My heroes will always be honorable and my heroines true. It's one of the covenants of romance, imho.

Anne said...

Well thank GOD that two of the authors that I read regularly will NOT head down that path! WHEW! Thank you Sarah and Ann. Bless you... seriously. If you had cheaters, I'd be devasatated. I can and have read about imperfect heroes, flawed heroes, and that's all fine and dandy... but no cheating! There is no way to redeem cheating in my eyes. So, again, THANK YOU. *G*

Katie- I'm with you on every single point. As I said, there is no redeeming cheating... so I'll stick with authors who write the kind of romance that appeals to me. *G*

Charlene Teglia said...

I'm really happy to see this, because I read Lover Eternal and it wasn't my only recent read with a hero who slept around. Made me wonder what was going on! IMO, this just plain doesn't work in a romance. Ever. The fantasy of romance is that they fall in love, they're right for each other, and it's forever. That's the core of what a romance is and you can't mess with the core and still have a romance.

Lauren Dane said...

Oh I have to say I was really annoyed by the cheating in Lover Eternal! The excuse for it was so flimsy and stupid and it make me hate Rhage (aside from the actual name) and dislike the heroine for taking it

Cheating is a careful thing to navigate. It's not something I'd do in a romance although some say that Jude cheated on Rori in Second Chances even though they were both dating other people, etc.

I don't mind if characters are flawed and then overcome that. But if there's an HEA and then it gets messed up later on, I'd wonder why. Although I'm curious to see how Ruth does it because she rocks.

Karen Scott said...

Sarah Wrote "Pretty much, just want the hero to die some horrendously disgusting death and disappear from existence."

So how do you really feel about cheating heroes Sarah? *g*

And Anne, I totally agree, cheating heroes just do not belong between the covers of romance books, especially if they already had their HEA!

sybil said...

cheating heroes just do not belong between the covers of romance books, especially if they already had their HEA!

I completely agree karens but what if they haven't hit the HEA yet? In LE the h/h hadn't even had sex with each other yet or were really 'dating'. She was staying with the brotherhood because the bad guys had her address.

So to me, that isn't cheating.

If the h/h have hit the point were they are having sex and one or the other has sex with something else I almost always can not finish the book. I think susan johnson is the only author I have continued to the end of the book.

Anne said...

Okay Sybil, I have to disagree. If people who have read the book are thinking he's cheating, then there was something implied that they were a couple, i.e., in a relationship, and had some sort of committment going on. So.... implied or outright stated, cheating is cheating... and should NOT touch the pages of a romance book, no matter what the circumstances are. Absolutely NEVER.

Anne said...

One more thing.... when you said the h/h... that right there implies that you know they are intended to be together... so why does the author have him have sex with someone else? It's just not right

Lauren Dane said...

Re: Lover Eternal - No, she was with him when he continued to pick up women in bars and have sex with them indiscriminately. He bragged about it within her hearing even. It was something that she sort of got mad over but bought his so called explanation of why he continued to sleep with other women.

Anne said...

So basically... she's a heroine who is too stupid to live and I'd want to poke her eyes out? Ugh. So NOT my kind of book.

I love Ruth D. Kerce too, Lauren, but I couldn't bring myself to read the book because I didn't want to ruin my memory of the first one. *sigh* Very disappointing.

sybil said...

Cheating isn't new ground at all when you look back on 80s and 90 romances. It was often done. And I think more often than not it isn't done today. Personally I don't like em and it screws with my happy happy joy joy fantasy.

But in cases where the h/h haven't had sex yet, sometimes... I can go with it.

when you said the h/h... that right there implies that you know they are intended to be together...
Is there any romance novel you can pick up and not know who the h/h are? I think it is always clear on the back of the book. And they are not always together when the books starts.
s
p
o
i
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but I don't think you are reading the books anyway ;)

If people who have read the book are thinking he's cheating, then there was something implied that they were a couple, i.e., in a relationship, and had some sort of committment going on.
Well people can see things in all sorts of ways but it doesn't make it fact.

So even if he hadn't been thrown by the buzz from kissing Mary, he still would have left her in that parking lot. With her lovely voice and her warrior eyes and her trembling mouth. Mary could not be just another screw. pg 99

"About the sleeping arrangements," he said, "I'll just crash on the floor." But she wanted to be in that big bed with him, she thought. "Don't be silly, Rhage. We're both adults. And that thing is wide enough to sleep six."pg 205 the first night mary spends with rhage... they are not together, she is under his protection

Wanting to sleep with someone does not a relationship make. Even if both the h/h admit to themselves they want/love/need the other, but don't say it would that make it cheating?

They do have something of a sexual... uh encounter but stop because of the beast and the conversation that takes place after leaves it clear they are not going there. (yes we know they will, it is a romance novel)

"You don't want me. Trust me, you really don't want me like that."

"The hell I don't."

He wasn't about to tell her he was a beast waiting to happen. So he chose to disgust her rather than scare her. "I've had eight different females this week alone."
pg 217

After that... Rhage going out to screw some chick isn't cheating. At least not to me, two adults made the choice to not make their relationship sexual and didn't commit to each other. Once they do, it doesn't happen again.

Did I think it sucked? Yes. Did I hurt for Rhage and Mary? Yes. Did I 'want' them together and know they would end up HEA. Yes. But they had to get through the conflict of the story first and I didn't see it as infidelity.

Others could see it differently of course...

sybil said...

So basically... she's a heroine who is too stupid to live and I'd want to poke her eyes out?

I guess that depends. What would be stupid. Taking the protection of a man who treats you with respect and wants to keep you alive. Or stomp home, alone, in the dark, to the place where the bad guys know your address and go to bed?

She didn't have family to go to. She didn't seem to have much money or a job that would allow her to pick up and go live in a hotel or even a motel. The only real friend she has at this point is Bella, who lives across the street. So I guess she could have asked to stay there but she isn't selfish enough to put another person in danger.

And by that point she knows they are vamps and things that go bump in the night, so calling the cops wouldn't seem like the thing to do.

Either way a reader could nitpick it and make it tstl really.

Anne said...

Cheating isn't new ground at all when you look back on 80s and 90 romances.

But it's 2006.. we've long since moved past men treating women like shit.. cheating on them, degrading them... as you said, it's 80s romance... it should stay there.

IMO- He's a whore... a man/beast who doesn't care who he f*cks, just so long as he gets a piece of ass... well, any woman who would stick around with a man like that is an idiot.

"Oh, I can change him." She'd think.... Oye. I so don't think so.

"But, it'll be different with me," she pleads. *snort* Yeah right! For how long?

If that were a woman and she had done the running around, she'd have been called a sleazy slutty ho-bag and readers would have thrown the book across the room. BUT, because it's a man, it's acceptable???? NOT for me. No way. Not for me.

sybil said...

LOL I was referring to the 'new ground' in the first comment not your post. Sorry ;)

Are we still talking about LE? cuz she wasn't running around saying I can change him. Really I don't read many contemps... and the historicals I do read very few use that either. Of course I can think of two books off the top of my head - The Marriage Bed and The Duchess Next Husband. I am sure there are more.

But really, the thing I find most interesting in your post is, I hadn't noticed at all that is seems to be a 'thing' lately. But I avoid them, so maybe that is why.

I think I misunderstood the rant as well. Are you ranting about what readers will read, ok and like? Or that writers have the nerve to write it?

I agree that what is good for the goose is good for the gander but really would avoid both. I don't agree that just because a reader 'see's it - it is fact. Or that cheating can happen before a the h/h commit to each other, of course we know WHO the h/h are. Hell I think we know that before the book is written. But to each their own, interesting topic! LOL makes for a good blog ;).

LOL and But it's 2006.. we've long since moved past men treating women like shit.. cheating on them, degrading them... as you said, it's 80s romance... it should stay there. could be a post in itself.... but I think writers can and will write whatever they want. I don't like rape in novels but can't say I expect all writers to stop writing it because I think it sucks.

Shawn said...

Thank you Sybil! At first when I seen Lover Eternal referenced, I was like huh? Who cheated?

I personally like my hero and heroines realistic sometimes.

Sam said...

Once my hero was kidnapped by his ex-fiancee and she tied him up and was going to compramise his reputation, and my editor (at EC) said, 'no, that can me misconstrued as cheating' and I took the scene out. So are you sure about Ruth's book??? I think the editors are pretty good at spotting things that look like cheating (or are) and asking the author if they really want it in the book.
IMO I hate cheaters so if I did have one in my book he'd be a 'bad guy', lol.

Anne said...

Sybil- You sure aren't kidding whn you say that the whole 80s thing is a topic in itself. LOL I could go on an on about that, but I won't *G* The "I can change him" comment was just a figure of speech for how some heroines act in books and it pisses me off. It sure as hell won't happen, right?

Sybil and Shawn- Well I didn't read LE... as I said I saw the reference on JaynieR's blog... and since I've seen it more often lately (the whole cheating thing) I felt compelled to blog and see what everyone else thought. Interesting POV from everyone thus far.

SAM
---SPOILER---


Sam- Yes, I am certain he cheated. It's in part with some of the story line of the whole "Initiation" thing, but he says one thing and does another and when the heroine from the first book finds out at the hero from the first book cheats/messes around so to speak in the second book, she's extremely hurt. So, to me, that constitutes cheating. And I'm in total agreement with you about EC...love their books, can't get enough, same with Ruth D. Kerce and I as well as a few others were VERY surprised when cheating was in the book... but that one cheating incident turned me off from the entire series since the H & H from book one play a major role in the entire series. Bummer.

Jane said...

I am in agreement with Sybil on the whole not cheating thing in LE. They weren't in a relationship yet. They were moving toward it but not together. So while it was a total asshatish action, it wasn't cheating.

But I have never read Ruth Kerce. Can someone explain the reason why the hero cheated and what the resolution was?

Joni said...

I believe cheating shouldn't be in a romance book, but it is a common fact it does occur in real life, whether it's acceptable or not. How the author works it out between the hero/heroine to reach their HEA when they insert cheating into it determines how I, as a reader, will react to it. For instance, if the hero/heroine cheated on the heroine/hero when they were quite young and stupid and that was the determining factor as to why they broke up yet several years later when they'd matured enough and got back together, then I would find that acceptable for me. But anything other than that, once they're already in a committed relationship and it occurs - hell no! I warned my husband before we married that if I smelled another woman on him besides me after he'd said "I Do", don't fall asleep cuz he'd most likely wake up having to have his penis surgically removed from his stomach! Not to mention I'd divorce him. You can avoid temptation once you're in a committed relationship. There are no excuses when you don't in my book!

Lauren Dane said...

Nah, they'd made the first moves toward her being his mate. He talks about fucking other women in her presence which isn't respectful at all.

And Mary is a mary sue!

I so much prefer Wrath!

I LOVE the world JR Ward has created with her Black Dagger Brotherhood books, but I thought it was dastardly and cheating and I know many other romance readers think the same.

It won't stop me from picking up the next book though!

As for EC editors, I can vouch for that. My editor at EC wouldnt' take Second Chances because she said Jude cheated even though they were both just dating and knew they were seeing/sleeping with other people.

Joni said...

Won't stop me from reading about it either..hehehe!

Joni

sybil said...

And Mary is a mary sue!

Really? You think? When I think Mary Sue I think in fanfic terms. LOL or LKH, but that is another post *g*. I googled it and the closest I came up with was:

Who is Mary Sue?

Is that what you are thinking? If so how do you see Mary as a Mary Sue? Sorry anne! I am way taking you off topic here... I shall go blog and stop taking up your blog.

Anne said...

Blog away Sybil. It's interesting to see what topics form from this one. *G*

I'm curious to see what you and Lauren talk about next. I've got to check out the whole Mary Sue thing, even though I didn't read LE. LOL Very entertaining.

sybil said...

Well I am not sure if I did it justice but meljean and fiona have some great thoughts on it. post bes here... It will be interesting to see what MS if any people come up with. Anita Blake is the only one I can think of.

Lauren Dane said...

Every problem that comes up Mary is miraculously able to solve.

She's unrelentingly *good* she's got cancer, her mother died of a wasting disease, she helps the homeless, she volunteers at a suicide hotline. At first we think she's being stalked and she actually reaches out to a creepy homeless guy who's been stalking her and WHAM homeless guy is mute and she knows sign language (of course and soon she'll know brain surgery too!).

She is so backbreakingly "feisty" and "sassy" that knowing big bad things are out to kill her, she still insists on being "independent" and refusing help from The Brotherhood.

The term Mary Sue came from Star Trek actually but in non fanfic speak, she's the character who is so idealized that she's perfect.

Jaynie R said...

ummm...coming in late cos I've been out of the blogworld for a couple of weeks.

Gotta say - JR has some pretty rabid fanchicks. I've received a lot of shit over those comments - but personally I saw it as cheating.

The way it made the heroine feel was horrible. She felt betrayed so I considered it cheating even though they hadn't slept together.

Shelby said...

Hi! Love this topic. I'm going out on a limb here to say that one of my novels is about a male escort, and after realizing he's attracted to the heroine, he "goes to work" for the night, and does have sex with other women. I never thought of it as cheating when I wrote it. The whole time he's working, he's on some sort of self-destructive mission. But now I'm wondering...

Anne, you read The Fifth Favor, didn't you? Would the hero be considered cheating, and if so, should I scratch the sequel, which involves a different gigolo who works in the same pleasure club? I know readers don't like their characters to cheat. I totally understand why, too. I'm just wondering if there's a sneaky way around it when the plot involves something like prostitution.


Hugs,
Shelby

Anne said...

Oh yes Shelby I've read the Fifth Favor.. wonderful story. Did I think he was a cheater? No. Why? Because of your delivery. Had the H & H been in a relationship or even at the beginning of a relationship and he continued to prostitute himself in such a manner that the heroine didn't know, then that would be cheating. But if she knows and does nothing and says nothing to stop it, then it's not cheating. Now, if he went ahead and did it anyway after she made it plain as day that it would hurt her deeply, then yes, that's cheating.

With prostitution there's a fine line... such as with Fifth Favor and in the JD Robb In Death series when Monroe is a licensed escort and sees Peabody on the side.. she knows what he does and it doesn't bother her one bit.

If it's common knowledge to the heroine what the hero does for a living and she chooses not to intervene, then it's not cheating. I could go on and on.. LOL I'm going to pull up Fifth Favor on my ebookwise Shelby and re-read it. It's been too long since I've read that one. *G* And you've got a SEQUEL??? Squeeeee! Yay! I'm so excited! I love your work Shelby and I'm impatiently wiggling in anticipation of your next book! Woo hoo!!!!

Ruth D. Kerce said...

Hi All,

Just found this blog. And ACK! The hero of my first book, Xylon Warriors I, did not cheat in the second book -- not really (not according to their culture). I'll explain a little about what happened. I know, I know -- another author explaining or trying to justify, but I just gotta. LOL

The hero from the first book was involved in an Initiation process in the second book, with several other Warriors -- which if you've read the first book, then you know what that's about. His actions were VERY abbreviated, let's say. He did touch this other woman with his hands/mouth (on breasts and butt). And he did pleasure himself (ahem - being delicate here - LOL). He'd discussed all this with his mate beforehand. And, well, I don't want to post too much or any spoilers, so I'll leave it at that.

Anyhow, given the Xylon world, I really didn't think his partial involvment would be a problem. I do hope that everyone will make up their own mind by trying the book (or borrowing the print version from someone, if you're not sure about paying for a copy).

I really believe that it was done in a way that did not diminish the relationship in the first book. I love these characters so much! I tried hard to stay true to the Xylon culture, while still maintaining the integrity of the characters and their mates.

If there's ever something in one of my books that doesn't work for you as a reader, please feel free to email me. I like to hear all comments. It really does help me to know what the readers like and what you all don't like. It's a continual learning process, for sure!

HAPPY Reading! And thanks so much to those of you who read the first book and enjoyed it. The 3rd book in the series will be out soon!

Ruth :-)
http://www.ruthkerce.com

徵信 said...

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網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 網頁設計 , 網頁設計 , 網頁設計 , 網頁設計 , 網頁設計 , 網頁設計 , 網頁設計 , 網頁設計 , 網頁設計 , 網站設計 , 網站設計 , 網站設計 , 網站設計 , 網站設計 , 網站設計 , 網站設計 , 網站設計 , 網站設計 , web design , web design , web design , web design , web design , web design , web design , web design , web design , 天狼星廣告設計 , 天狼星廣告設計 , 天狼星廣告設計 , 天狼星廣告設計 , 天狼星廣告設計 , 天狼星廣告設計 , 天狼星廣告設計 , 天狼星廣告設計 , 天狼星廣告設計 , 平面設計 , 平面設計 , 平面設計 , 平面設計 , 平面設計 , 平面設計 , 平面設計 , 平面設計 , 平面設計 , CIS設計 , CIS設計 , CIS設計 , CIS設計 , CIS設計 , CIS設計 , CIS設計 , CIS設計 , CIS設計 , 虛擬主機 , 虛擬主機 , 虛擬主機 , 虛擬主機 , 虛擬主機 , 虛擬主機 , 虛擬主機 , 虛擬主機 , 虛擬主機 , 廣告設計 , 廣告設計 , 廣告設計 , 廣告設計 , 廣告設計 , 廣告設計 , 廣告設計 , 廣告設計 , 廣告設計 , seo , seo , seo , seo , seo , seo , seo , seo , seo , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 網站排名優化 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 關鍵字行銷 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 第三者 , 包二奶 , 包二奶 , 包二奶 , 包二奶 , 包二奶 , 包二奶 , 包二奶 , 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